What would collapse look like?

[Anton]

Why didn't we put irradiated super-mutant robot alien dogs in our world, you ask?

Well, first and fore-most, when creating the world and background, we wanted to maintain an air of plausibility. We wanted to create a world that was not only dystopian, but felt like it was "real". Of course, we didn't want it to be so realistic that people were selling their children for a bottle of water, which would probably/possibly be the case if a true apocalypse actually happened.

We wanted to write a complete economic, social, and political vacuum into our world, without killing everyone off with a zombie virus, a nuclear winter, or bio-engineered dinosaurs.

Additionally, we wanted to write human factions that had distinct personality and ideology. We have spent a lot of time researching language, customs, death rites, and upbringings from different cultures around the world.

We have tried to write characters, factions, and communities that are not only dynamic and realistic, but that are almost all shades of gray. There aren't really any good or evil characters in our world. There are certainly self-serving warlords, good-natured mayors, and egocentric former-millionaires in our campaign setting, but the majority of the people are just trying to make it through the day, and work towards a a better tomorrow.

We have been aiming to create a world where knowledge is as valuable (and sometimes as dangerous) as a fully loaded rifle.

A world that adds aspects of community and building to the sometimes tiring hack and slash genre of tabletop games.

We have added some unusual aspects to the tabletop skirmish game; such as trading, exploration, and the search for knowledge. It's not just about who has the biggest guns, but about who creates the most sustainable community... Which is of course protected with some pretty big guns.

The world of Wreck Age is a dangerous, yet newly hopeful place. We hope you'll enjoy our hard work, and we're looking forward to showing you a lot more in the near future.

So I'll get off my soapbox now, and ask; what are you opinions on what is "realistic" should a complete disaster or apocalypse happen?

[Matt]

On second thought bio-engineered dinosaurs sound pretty killer

[Anton]

From space.

[housetroll]

watch "when man is gone"series for some really cool ideas for the post collapse world .

[Anton]

Nov 1, 2011 7:23:27 GMT -5 housetroll said:

watch "when man is gone"series for some really cool ideas for the post collapse world .

It's in my netflix cue now.

If I remember correctly, some of the episode titles were hilarious.


I'm currently working on getting through Jeremiah with Luke Perry and Malcom Jamal Warner, which is pretty dismal (acting-wise) stuff. Apparently, in the post apocalypse, only failed actors have survived.

[dfokine]

Hi Guys,
I just joined your forum after seeing your New mini for the game, and reading some of your concepts for this wreck age. Good work. I love a good civilization restart and yours seems very well conceived.
I am a lifetime lover of minis and the many genres they represent. I am also a life long adherent to the social collapse philosophy that has seemed to so strongly grip our culture (or at least subculture) in these past couple of years.
I was just reading a blog on the inevitability of social collapse and ten minutes later i'm looking at the miniature representations of tomorrow's raiders. Funny when you think about it.
I think you guys have conceived some great social groups for this game. it always goes back to farmers and raiders, pastoral vs sedentary.
I have a big garden myself and i live on a small island ( 2,500 residents) and i'm always oscillating between ( in the apocalypse of course) saving seeds and collecting seaweed for green manure or just grabbing a shotgun and heading to the mainland to raise hell.
Well, keep up the good work and i'll be excited to see where you take it. It's more than a game..

[Matt]

Thanks dfokine,

I appreciate everything you have posted, when I started writing Wreck-Age I was looking for a balance between plausibility and fun that is still pretty hard to keep intact. I think the only way for survival after the collapse of civilization is through community and I hope we can capture that in the end.

And expect battles over seed banks!

-Matt

[s1nn3d1]

I can recommend the book "Nation" by Terry Pratchett.
Although the story isn't set in a apocalyptic future, I think it still draws a good picture about how a society would rebuilt itself after a "global" disaster.
In my opinion it describes very good how culture, tradition, religion, hopes and fears are fundamental stones for rebuilding a society consisting of drawn together survivors.

So if you find time besides your tremendous workload for reading :-)
this book is worth it.

[ferk]

I just watched a movie last night called, Battle for Leningrad' about WWII. there is a part where the Nazis blow up the Soviet food depot and all the remaining rations of the city are lost. What a perfect example (I said to myself) of the idiocy of large overarching control. ( be it capitalist or communist or whatever). The 'food' should never be in one place and one place alone, cause someone can always come over and drop a big bomb on it. Community IS truly the only path. small and adaptable.

[s1nn3d1]

When I think about a post-apocalyptic world then pictures come up of people cruising around in old scrap yard vehicles, caravans of trucks driving through waste lands etc.
This made me think about what transportation would/could really look like in a world, when technology is lost and oil fields and refineries have been abandoned for many years.
I think that people would still be using vehicles powered by combustion engines. But they would be more flexible… or crude. So they could run on almost anything that could be used as fuel. The knowledge to maintain or even build such vehicle or just motors would be a craft that would be handed down from generation to generation.
IMO ethanol would become more important in such a future as a fuel as it is easier to produce and could be produced almost anywhere where people can grow vegetables. And, if you’re lucky or good at distilling, you could also drink it…

On the other hand I also see people producing a kind of diesel in crude, improvised refineries. This would of course be only available in some regions where people rediscovered an old oil field/pumping station. Check out on illegal refineries in the Niger delta to see what I mean.
Then there’s of course the steam engine. Which I think would also be used on larger vehicles.

The most common mean of transportation IMO, besides ones feet of course, would be riding. As people will hang on to certain knowledge, handed down from generation to generation, I also believe that people will hang on to domesticated animals.

[Anton]

This is all stuff that we've been talking about a bit... We're definitely going to be including bio-fuels and alternative means of fuel production, but the problem is... where will the cars come from???

Keep in mind, in our history, it's been 150 years of complete and utter turmoil... There aren't any cars left from before the Exodus that will be able to run. There are of course people who can put together a new car, but those will be very few and far between.

That said; there there's a will, there's a way. We're discussing the possibility of land-trains, and possibly even some of the old rail structure still being usable. Most roads are completely wrecked, so even if you had a car, what would you drive it on?

The possibility for larger trucks is open, but it would be rare that the resources would allow for them to travel very much... and even if they do, how would you defend it?

[jturner]

Wow. This game looks so cool. There are lot's of good ideas already posted.

About fuel, It seems to me that it would be used more for work engines rather than vehicles per se. I think a Horse for transportation makes more sense, as it can forage. For generators, stump/stone removal, or dedicated usage (opening a heavy gate) engines could be rigged up and using fuel. maybe heat for plant nurseries? Back up food supplies in the winter, for example. Even keeping pipes coming from a well warm enough to keep the water flowing...this kind of stuff would all need electricity, and without a grid, fuel.

I think electricity and it's sources and uses are what are really captivating me at this time. How do you make it? How do you use it? How do you store it...or do you?

Also, think about this:

"On land, there are still some remote areas that can be reached only on foot. Some of these as yet unexplored places are in the mountains of New Guinea and in the jungles of Africa and the Amazon.

Then, too, there are the colder regions still to be visited and explored. However, these regions, the Greenland icecap, northwest Siberia, and Antarctica, can only be reached by dog teams."

With global warming, it could be that some of the land that was previously ice-covered is now arable. It seems that the real issue would be atmospheric pollution and resource exploitation rather than total environmental collapse. I think with industry shut down, the planets recuperation would be expedited. Around urban areas, there would be utter devastation, but in the less poplulated parts of the world, I think recovery could happen rather quickly. In fact....I would be worried about those guys that left in space ships coming back!

[ferk]

I agree. With a world population utterly wiped out teh atmosphere would recover pretty fast. unless we had done so much destruction that climate had made teh earth essentially a desert. But for a fun RPG that shouldn't be the case. I guess the real question is, where is Wreck age taking place? It's hard to think globally about the changes or a totally f--ked up world. But when you take a portion of it and elaborate, then it becomes mentally manageable. 'Out west' for instance is something a gamer can get thier genre immagination head focused on.

[s1nn3d1]

I gave the point about fuel some more consideration.
I don't think that fuel powered vehicles would be the "standard". I share jturners point of view that the majority of fuel would be used for more important purposes than moving ones butt around... like we use to do today.
About "cars. It's not the car that makes a vehicle. It's the idea of an car that makes people built something in which they can drive around. Same with the idea of a gun which makes people get back to black powder etc.
Combining the picture of waste lands with people moving they're belongings from one place to an other in caravans, trucks etc I picture something like wild west style wagons... but built of scrap. Either pulled by animals or powered for example by humans (any one remembering how a bike works )

In my opinion a nomadic way of life would make sense in a world with a fragile, maybe extreme environment/climate. In that case people could move for example to one place, when the dry period begins in the North and would move back when the hurricane period begins in the South.

About the atmosphere or weather. If I consider the scenarios you get from various sources it would be logical to have climate zones which would differ more than they do today and/or weather changes which would effect life even more than it is doing today.
One thing that could explain for example frozen norther Europe and overheated Mediterranean region could be a collapse of the golf stream.
With this "option" at hand it would be up to the gamer to decide wether he likes a dry desert or a cold dry tundra setting for his carracters.

[jturner]

S1nn3d1...so you would probably fall under a drifter or reclaimer category...the idea of moving around and such. Fun how it just kind of comes out in our posts....it looks like I would be more of a 'staker'

Truly, if I was living in a messed up world, I would find a viable water source, some arable land and some animals, team up with folks and slowly creep our boudaries out. In fact, I would probably try to recruit some drifters into scouting and reporting for us in exchange for food/fuel/shelter. Maybe some would join the community as outriders eventually....

cool.

Also, I agree that a global ideal would be hard to wrap the initial game around. Of course I would be imagining North America. I just think it would be fun to see central africa or the amazon emerge as new 'power' areas due to the lack of industrial penetration. Of course, I am thinking 'now' rather than 'collapse', so it may be those areas would be exploited by that time.

[Anton]

Good points all around... We have already taken a lot of this into consideration in our brainstorming phase (which is still on-going). Most over-land travel will take place via slow wagon train... Well-armed wagon trains. Caravans will be mainly run by trade-guilds and Caravaneers, which are cast-outs from Staker communities over the generations...

That said, trucks and cars aren't outside the realm of possibility for most larger communities, they are just very resource intensive, as others have already pointed out. Most fuels are going to be used to generate power, in one form or another. Some animal powered, some solar, some wind, some will power a generator directly... Soy can be converted into bio diesel, or fed to horses that in turn can animal powered turbines. It's all a different use of resources, which will be simplified into "Resource Units". If any of you have ever played the board game Puerto Rico, These are similar to the little blocks of goods that you can create and trade.

The majority of the setting at launch will be North America... mainly because that's the area we're the most familiar with, but just about every locale in the world (and some that aren't) have already been discussed and have at least some back story.

There is a large power in the Nurain forests of Central & South America...

More on that later on down the road though...


The ARHK and another corporate power (with an opposing philosophy) will also be minor players during Year Zero. Both of those are going to be based outside of North America.

the Middle East and Africa will have suffered great catastrophe after being major world powers before the Exodus. Pan Asia will maintain a presence after the Exodus, and how could we be a proper Post Apocalypse influenced game without at least paying homage to the land of the Last of the V8s?

A lot of this is just a hint at things that are still a very long way off... We've got a lot more than what we have already shown you...

[bosky]

I think it'd be a lot like the aftermath of existing natural disasters, but without any restoration of order. Take Hurricane Katrina in the USA for example: lots of senseless looting of electronics, a few gun battles, authority figures abandoning their posts, etc.

For movie references I'd recommend a few made-for-TV options that aren't as common as Mad Max.

The first is The Day After (not to be mistaken for the recent horrible global warming one): www.imdb.com/title/tt0085404/
And basically the UK equivalent called Threads: www.imdb.com/title/tt0090163/

Both of them make the apocalypse seem less "fun" than a lot of games and books do (like The Earth Abides which made it seem kind of awesome to just hang out and eat endless canned food).

Personally I think that the apocalyptic event is key, and that people have a tendency to rebuild and rework society to the standard of comfort they may have been used to in the past. If the apocalyptic event makes that impossible then I still think society would adapt. There might be a generation or two of post-apoc in the "classic" sense (people wearing hockey armor and working on dust farms, etc.), but eventually I think the world would improve. The original two Fallouts really captured this in my eyes as the first was a mess with bottlecaps as currency, two headed cows, etc. whereas the second had minted money and a return of normal cattle.

[Matt]

Bosky,

You make some good points, and I know a lot of people are going to wish their was one particular event that took civilization down, but our collapse is a more gradual one. I would say that the closest historical event would be the fall of the roman empire- just imagine Nero playing a fiddle when the Exodus Seed Ships leave everyone else behind.

The research I found gave about 200-500 years for severe pollution to run its course, and I went for the shorter duration for communities to build because I agree with you that people would bounce back as soon as possible. It is believed that 70,000 years ago the human population shrank to only 15,000 individuals and we overcame that, so I definitely think a collapse would not be the end for mankind.

We certain;y have made a few concessions in the name of fun though, because it is a game after all.

I am not arguing with you mind you, just pointing out while our particular vision is very similar but different than yours. This thread is getting pretty cool

And thanks for the heads up with Threads, I'll check that out soon.

-Matt

[ferk]

One Idea I thought about while staring at a map of the USA was;
We always think of global warming as affecting the coasts, flooding cities, washing out coastal communities etc but what about the inland of the USA? The reason why the American midwest has/had such amazing topsoil..(30 feet down or something like that) was that at one time it had been a huge swamp, filling in essentially coast to coast. I can imagine that the inundation of rising sea-levels was a 'issue' before the rich fled Earth. for probably 100 or so years, coastal cities were dealing with the crisis. However, the midwest, vastly less populated and economically not as relevant would be slowly 'filling up' with a epic spill over from the mississippi. The great lakes too, like giant bathtubs with a clogged drain, began to overflow and consume lower lying areas around them. Pre-abandonment or pre collapse, these areas were essentially neglected and 'hidden from view' by the media and politicians. Not just because it was embarrassing to the pollution apologists but also because it defined something more ominous. That our country's 'Bread basket' was sinking. These areas then could have become sanctuaries for people who refused to give up their land and relocate to the crowded cities of the coast. Island chains and ever-growing vast swamps became the hold outs of 'traditional' people and 'misfits' who escaped to this new frontier.
When the rich left and the 'world' collapsed these people and environment were still essentially ignored as the world consumed itself with violence and brutal regimes etc etc.
Now, in the Wreck age you see these groups living as they always have, albeit a little more weird after 300 years of 'societal' isolation. The land too, continues to grow to the boarders of the rockies. The Mississippi has become a almost impassable sea that divides the struggling groups of coastal survivors who now live at the remaining higher elevations.
For the game: This environmental phenomenon and the subsequent 'culture' flora and fauna it creates might be a fun divergence from the 'dusty no damn water' apocalypse of norm. You could still have the plains and the west, as these things wouldn't really be that effected in areas like montana and anything beyond the rockies going west. It would give the gamer another approach to survival and open alot of doors in the way of animals and plants as well as character types and visuals. Having to figure out a way to cross the mighty Mississippi by getting ferried from island to island and meeting all the characters in between would be a pretty fun objective. feuding amish 'kingdoms' ,swamp folk, venice style cities, boat people, pirates,
Just a thought.

[jturner]

Ferk, intetersting, but I think you missed out on one thing that would make the 'coverd up' and 'ignored' part difficult.
The great lakes are one of the largest mass of freshwater (if not the largest), anywhere.
he Great lakes regions are already becoming part of an intense debate about water and rights. How does that fit into or change your narrative?

[Anton]

Dec 4, 2011 14:27:38 GMT -5 ferk said:

One Idea I thought about while staring at a map of the USA was;
We always think of global warming as affecting the coasts, flooding cities, washing out coastal communities etc but what about the inland of the USA? The reason why the American midwest has/had such amazing topsoil..(30 feet down or something like that) was that at one time it had been a huge swamp, filling in essentially coast to coast. I can imagine that the inundation of rising sea-levels was a 'issue' before the rich fled Earth. for probably 100 or so years, coastal cities were dealing with the crisis. However, the midwest, vastly less populated and economically not as relevant would be slowly 'filling up' with a epic spill over from the mississippi. The great lakes too, like giant bathtubs with a clogged drain, began to overflow and consume lower lying areas around them. Pre-abandonment or pre collapse, these areas were essentially neglected and 'hidden from view' by the media and politicians. Not just because it was embarrassing to the pollution apologists but also because it defined something more ominous. That our country's 'Bread basket' was sinking. These areas then could have become sanctuaries for people who refused to give up their land and relocate to the crowded cities of the coast. Island chains and ever-growing vast swamps became the hold outs of 'traditional' people and 'misfits' who escaped to this new frontier.
When the rich left and the 'world' collapsed these people and environment were still essentially ignored as the world consumed itself with violence and brutal regimes etc etc.
Now, in the Wreck age you see these groups living as they always have, albeit a little more weird after 300 years of 'societal' isolation. The land too, continues to grow to the boarders of the rockies. The Mississippi has become a almost impassable sea that divides the struggling groups of coastal survivors who now live at the remaining higher elevations.
For the game: This environmental phenomenon and the subsequent 'culture' flora and fauna it creates might be a fun divergence from the 'dusty no damn water' apocalypse of norm. You could still have the plains and the west, as these things wouldn't really be that effected in areas like montana and anything beyond the rockies going west. It would give the gamer another approach to survival and open alot of doors in the way of animals and plants as well as character types and visuals. Having to figure out a way to cross the mighty Mississippi by getting ferried from island to island and meeting all the characters in between would be a pretty fun objective. feuding amish 'kingdoms' ,swamp folk, venice style cities, boat people, pirates,
Just a thought.

There's a lot of good stuff in here, but unfortunately, water-logging the midwest goes against some of the basic stuff that we've already written. I'm trying to find images and interpretations of rising water levels, but I've only been able to find coastal stuff so far. In most cases, the water table rising a few inches isn't going to completely wipe a place off the map, but it will change it to a much more marsh-like area... which is what we're planning on doing with much of the mid-west, houston, new york, etc... The Pacific NW (Seattle/portland) and florida are going to have major changes to the topography... We're trying to find a good balance between plausible/realistic, and fun to play...

Matt has been really into the concept of "boat men" since the games first stages, and we already have some concept art drawn up along those lines... We'll be showing it towards the end of the year when people vote on the recycling program miniature.

[ferk]

I live on an island, so i'm always looking for the bckward cut off inbred island/swamp folk angle.

Jturner,
That's very true, I didn't take into account that in the future ( Wreck age's past) that coastal urban areas probably grew a lot and that the majority of the east coast was a giant urban sponge for fresh water. I don't think expanded agriculture really would make a huge impact on the great lakes, but tons of people, yes.
Also, I could imagine that a massive influx of salt water from the st lawrence river ( I'm pretty sure it flows into the great lakes not out?) would mean that the overflow of the lakes and the mississippi would become brackish at the lakes and fresh towards the edges. It would be like a giant inland sea and a river of salt water. intense! that all hinges on the st lawrence flowing inland, which i might be totally wrong.
i looked it up. i was wrong it flows away from the great lakes. A river of salt water, that sounded pretty cool though for a second....

[jturner]

"The immense storage capacities of the Great Lakes, in combination with their restricted outflow capacities, allows the lakes to absorb large variations in water supplies, while maintaining remarkably steady outflows compared with other large rivers. For example, the highest St. Lawrence River flow is only 2.3 times greater than its lowest rate. In contrast, the Mississippi River at St. Louis, Missouri, has a maximum flow about 30 times its minimum.

Because of the size of the Great Lakes and the limited discharge capacities of their outlet rivers, extremely high or low levels can persist for a considerable time, even when water supplies change significantly."

Looks like it flows out

[demyztikx]

I've seen a lot of disaster situation things and always test them out on the Lake Michigan portion of Michigan. Rising waters basically ignore the great lakes area. Thanks to high prevailing winds, airborne radiation in Chicago and Detroit will leave this area alone. Sometimes it seems like I live in the most survivable area in the continental US.

[ferk]

I don't stand a chance where I live.